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| Sun_Joe | ok folks... |
| Sun_Joe | welcome to the Sun chat |
| Malkava | =) |
| sinn_md | Sun_Joe: :0 |
| Sun_Joe | cool there we go |
| Sun_Joe | as the broadcast states, I am Joe Nuxoll |
| Sun_Joe | I'd love to answer any questions you might have about Creator |
| laughingMan | hello |
| ingvarrr | Is it opensource/free? |
| Sun_Joe | quick answers no/sorta |
| alangelov | free as in freedom? ;) |
| ingvarrr | :) |
| Sun_Joe | it is not an opensource product, but based on NetBeans |
| Sun_Joe | the "free" part is - yes for TopCoder developers |
| p45c4l | what's the difference between studio creator and netbeans? |
| Sun_Joe | and free for anyone to download and try |
| ingvarrr | Which is: "non-commercial use"? |
| merolish | Hi, Joe. For those of us who are familiar with, e.g., Eclipse, Visual Studio, or good old Emacs, what does Creator bring to the table? |
| Sun_Joe | taking "what's the difference between studio creator and netbeans?"... |
| ingvarrr | JSF, I suppose... |
| ingvarrr | ... it was to merolish. |
| Sun_Joe | Studio Creator was designed to target the muscle memory of VB folks |
| Sun_Joe | our first target is build web applications |
| Sun_Joe | we'll expand into other app types |
| Sun_Joe | we built Creator on top of the NetBeans core IDE architecture |
| Sun_Joe | leveraging NetBeans features where and when it helped our cause |
| Sun_Joe | in general, Creator is for a corporate developer looking to build a web front-end the exposes web services/ejbs/database data |
| binarius | why did you choose NetBeans? and not other IDEs such as Eclipse? |
| Sun_Joe | good question - and the best answer I can give is that we have a lot of good NetBeans expertise inside of Sun, and it provided all that we needed to build a compelling product |
| p45c4l | Sun_Joe: like, for the J2EE instead of J2SE? |
| Jexter | so does it also facilitates visual tools for creation of ejbs like Jbuilder does ? |
| Sun_Joe | Creator is currently able to create J2EE (JSF) applications |
| Sun_Joe | J2SE (Swing) applications will come later |
| Sun_Joe | This tool is not designed to handle the entire vertical stack - just the "consumption" side of the stack |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: Please correct my if I'm wrong, but JSF is just an specification, do you provide an implementation of JSF? |
| Sun_Joe | you can't build EJBs and WebServices using Creator, but you can "consume" them to build front ends very easily |
| Jexter | ok so now I am getting the idea |
| Sun_Joe | side note to all: I'm not sure if questions directly to me are viewable by everyone... are they? |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: yes |
| Sun_Joe | cool |
| Sun_Joe | thanks |
| ingvarrr | yep |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: online whispers aren't |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: online = only |
| Sun_Joe | JSF is a specification, yes - we bundle the RI with Creator |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: RI is a sun product? |
| Sun_Joe | you can package a standard WAR file and deploy to any application server |
| Sun_Joe | RI is a freely distributable prodcut |
| Sun_Joe | product |
| Sun_Joe | no hooks |
| Sun_Joe | (no gotchas) |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: but who developed it? |
| Sun_Joe | JSF RI developed by the JSF team at Sun |
| Sun_Joe | RI team is headed up by the dual spec leads: Ed Burns and Roger Katin |
| Sun_Joe | both Sun employees |
| Sun_Joe | but the RI is freely distributable |
| Sun_Joe | and I believe developed on Java.Net |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: is it open-source also? |
| Sun_Joe | either way - back to creator - we bundle it so you can deploy easily |
| Sun_Joe | I am not sure if JSF RI is open source... but I think so? Check the Java.Net project |
| Sun_Joe | "javaserverfaces" |
| Jexter | ok Sun_Joe what benefits does it provide when compared to Microsoft .net Studio |
| Sun_Joe | ok - now we're talking! |
| Sun_Joe | the two studio products (Creator and MS) have a lot of similarities |
| Sun_Joe | the more important aspect is the platform |
| Jexter | ok like ? |
| Sun_Joe | essentially, you get to deploy on Java (J2EE) using Creator and .NET using MS |
| Sun_Joe | so the real discussion is about the features/benefits between the two platforms |
| Jexter | yeah basically that is the right direction for this discussion |
| Sun_Joe | I'm not sure if this is the best place to go deeply into that - but I can take a quick crack at the top-level points |
| p45c4l | lol |
| Sun_Joe | religion aside... (seriously) |
| Sun_Joe | there are a lot of great strengths for both platforms |
| Sun_Joe | the key benefit can be argued as the key weakness depending on where you stand |
| Sun_Joe | MS has one vendor |
| Sun_Joe | Java has several |
| Sun_Joe | from a business perspective, I would prefer the market advantage to multiple vendors (plus open source vendors) |
| Jexter | yeah thats right |
| Sun_Joe | whereas you have a one-stop shop with MS |
| Sun_Joe | and some folks will say that's an advantage |
| Sun_Joe | on some points, it is |
| Sun_Joe | "standards" evolve much more quickly with a single vendor |
| Sun_Joe | we call those defacto-standards |
| Jexter | ok leave this discussion. .. come back to creator |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: what do you call a standarts ? Simply your implementation or result of collaboration efforts ?? |
| Jexter | tell us more about it |
| RizLA | what does java studio creator have that eclipse doesn't have? :) |
| Sun_Joe | ok - back to creator |
| binarius | is Creator compatible with Java 5? |
| Sun_Joe | Creator has visual drag-drop, easy to use assembly of scalable J2EE web applications |
| binarius | is NetBeans? |
| Sun_Joe | Creator is a *heck* of a lot easier to use for a corporate developer than Eclipse |
| Sun_Joe | but it does have a limited scope |
| Jexter | do you plan to increase the scope ? |
| Sun_Joe | NetBeans is much more similar to Eclipse - in that... |
| Sun_Joe | both of those products address the full gamut of Java development |
| Sun_Joe | (and other languages for that matter) |
| Sun_Joe | the scope of creator will expand based on the target customer demand |
| Sun_Joe | we expanded (for Creator 2) into Portlets for example |
| Sun_Joe | we'll be looking at rich clients in the next release |
| Sun_Joe | possible desktop and/or AJAX style rich clients |
| Sun_Joe | we're digging |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: is Creator compatible with Java 5? |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: Are you familar with M7 NitroX JSP IDE based on Eclipse ? If yes - how Creator compare to them ? |
| Sun_Joe | binarius first - Creator runs great on Java5 |
| Sun_Joe | we're not using any J5 features in the tool itself, so a future version will use more of that |
| Sun_Joe | we have to deal with the market lag to adopt new Java(s) |
| Sun_Joe | if the app server isn't running it - we can't develop on it |
| Sun_Joe | next is TAG: I have heard of M7's product (I know some of the folks over there) |
| Sun_Joe | but I don't know it well enough to really get into detail |
| Sun_Joe | I have heard - and this is just hear-say - that Creator is really a lot easier to use |
| Sun_Joe | which is good, because that is our primary objective |
| Sun_Joe | to make building Java web applications a snap for a VB programmer |
| Sun_Joe | servletshosting or something like that? |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: does it mean that it can result in low-performance web-applications as developer will control less information on code generated ? |
| Sun_Joe | actually, I'm happy to report... no |
| Sun_Joe | Creator produces very high-performance applications that are based on standard JSF runtime |
| Sun_Joe | we just simplify the model |
| Sun_Joe | but the code is still very scalable and performant |
| Sun_Joe | and... also to clarify |
| Sun_Joe | Creator is a real two-way tool |
| Sun_Joe | we don't just "generate" and pump out code |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: WYSIWYG ? |
| Sun_Joe | you can hand-muck with it all you like |
| Sun_Joe | yes, WYSIWYG |
| Sun_Joe | and hand-editable |
| Sun_Joe | it really is "interpreting" JSF code |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: ASP WebMatrix is also two-way |
| Sun_Joe | yes it is |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: and it's free ... |
| Sun_Joe | ironically, two-way-ness is more a factor of underlying component model |
| Sun_Joe | ah bug TAG: you have to deploy on MS servers to use that. |
| Sun_Joe | which is your choice |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: Mono xsp ? |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: ;-)) |
| Sun_Joe | I don't think I should comment on the viability of mono ;-) |
| Sun_Joe | but - seriously - |
| Sun_Joe | at that point its a platform decision |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: not a platform ... Middleware .. |
| Sun_Joe | that's a decision you need to make before you compare and evaluate tools - well... sorta... |
| Sun_Joe | tools evaluation play a part as well (of course) |
| Sun_Joe | but there are higher-order bits in selecting platform than tools |
| Sun_Joe | T.C.O. and all that jazz |
| Sun_Joe | there's a great slew of buzz words... |
| Sun_Joe | so - anyone have any questions about Creator - or even more specifically the TCO contest that leverage Creator's Design-Time API |
| Sun_Joe | how many of you are particpating in the components contest? |
| Sun_Joe | and building design-time support? |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: changing the subject, earlier you said Creator was free for TopCoder members, can we use it to develope commercial products? |
| ingvarrr | binarius: if you do, Sun_Joe will loose his job :P |
| Sun_Joe | I *think* so - I think all TopCoder participants in the TCO Components Competition get it free |
| Sun_Joe | and once you have it - you have it |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: TCO is over .. |
| Sun_Joe | you see... |
| Sun_Joe | ah |
| parker | How much is it for a single license usually? |
| Sun_Joe | dirt cheap - $99/year |
| Sun_Joe | we're not looking to make tons of money on this tool |
| Sun_Joe | we're really looking to get folks using VB using Java |
| parker | indeed |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: for us argentinians $99 is not cheap =P |
| Sun_Joe | but there's also the "perceived value" of a product |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: why 99 USD - not make it free for this version ? |
| alberto | hmmm. $99,0/year is not that cheap when you earn less than $4.800/year |
| parker | &4,800 a year?? |
| parker | &* |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: a lot of folks do not wanna to invest in tools ... |
| parker | er... $* |
| Sun_Joe | well - alberto - I bet you could get it free if you appealed to the right folks |
| alberto | Yeah, that is the master biggest sponsorship in Brazil. |
| Sun_Joe | so just a note about marketing 101: |
| alangelov | Sun_Joe: you were talking that the people that are in TCO will get it for free and you didn't answer TAGs question... |
| ingvarrr | What's the relation of this contest to creator? |
| parker | I have a feeling this isn't going over as well as Joe had hoped it would. hehe |
| Sun_Joe | "perceived value" is a factor that drives pricing as well |
| Sun_Joe | so apparently I missed a question |
| Sun_Joe | hey - I'm fine |
| mike | ingvarrr: some of the components during the TCO were/are JSF components |
| mike | ingvarrr: Sun gets these chats as a part of their sponsorship |
| alangelov | Sun_Joe: more Sun joes were needed for this chat |
| Yuri_ | So what does Sun Creator do? |
| TAG | mike: As well everybody is welcome to code Java JSF Scrollbar and Java JSF Accounts Payable during this week |
| ingvarrr | mike: got it, thanks :) |
| alberto | One interesting thing about prices, mostly with software, is that a really good cost/benefit relation in the US, can be a very expensive one in a whole lot of places. |
| Sun_Joe | so I missed a Q that TAG asked - what was that? |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: why not make free version of this IDE for 1.0, then split for Lite / Proffessional .. |
| Sun_Joe | alberto: I hear your pain, and I'll get that note back to our marketing folks |
| Sun_Joe | free trial is available now for download for anyone |
| ganesh1977_2000 | what IDE? |
| Sun_Joe | Studio Creator |
| Sun_Joe | ok TAG - I can only say that the marketing folks make that decision |
| Sun_Joe | I can tell them that it was suggested! ;-) |
| ganesh1977_2000 | whats special in studio creator? |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: BTW, related to alberto question - Sun is charging for Java licenses based on country per-capita income (according to United Nations recomendations) why not doing same for other software ? |
| alberto | Sun_Joe: Thank you, Sun_joe, this was not a comment especific to you product (your price is not as high as most ones are). But I was trying to show you guys the difference in the meaning of the prices for US, and non-US customers. |
| Yuri_ | Sun_Joe: how will studio creator compete/compare with Eclipse |
| dimkadimon | dan.v: are you there? |
| Sun_Joe | on pricing - it may well be that it is less than $99 outside the US - I just don't know |
| Sun_Joe | I'm a software architect ;-) |
| cmshivkumar | what is this sun chat room about? |
| Sun_Joe | ok - answering creator question: creator vs eclipse |
| Sun_Joe | I did answer that at the beginning of this session, actually - is there a log available? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | are you guys stopping netbeans then? |
| Sun_Joe | no sir - netbeans is alive and strong |
| Sun_Joe | Creator is built on top of NetBeans |
| ingvarrr | netbeans is developed by it's own community. right? |
| cmshivkumar | but netbeans is quite slow, being itself in java |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Studio Creator specialities |
| Sun_Joe | Creator is targeting the VB developer - ease of use in build client web applications |
| alberto | Everyone, sorry to have taken the conversation out of the most interesting focus: the technical parts of the software, not the pricing ones... Let us move back to the interesting part, shall we? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | I love VB |
| Sun_Joe | good, you'll love Creator then |
| damonema | i don't think there is a log available for users who come in after you answered that question...unless someone else knows of one? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | and i always compete here in vb even though i like java |
| Sun_Joe | and it should be very easy for you to understand - Creator was designed to feel a bit like VB |
| ingvarrr | there will be a chat transcript at the end of the session, I guess.... |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Sun Joe are you confident it will be a RAD like vb |
| ganesh1977_2000 | inclusing database |
| Sun_Joe | the main goal of Creator is to provide a VB-like easy to develop in environment (initially for web applications) |
| Sun_Joe | that allows a developer to deploy to the Java platform |
| ganesh1977_2000 | meaning servlets |
| doctor_dark | Does creator come with test environment J2EE servers ? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | jsp |
| ganesh1977_2000 | etc.. |
| Sun_Joe | we have a LOT of customers with a bunch of VB developers doing front-ends, and a bunch of Java folks on the back end |
| natori | Although JSC is easy to use, it's way too heavy. Most of the java-based development tools are painfully slow and I do not use it in any real development. Is there any chance to run them faster, without buying a monster machine? |
| Sun_Joe | this tool is designed to bring everyone to java |
| doctor_dark | for example, IBM's WebsPhere studio comes with the WebSphere test environment servers to test your webapps |
| natori | I mean the room for VM improvemnts... HotSpot is not enough. |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Do you guys think you can get all the folks from vb? |
| Sun_Joe | on test environment, yes |
| koder | natori: eclipse isn't that slow, althought its partially native |
| Sun_Joe | Creator is bundled with Pointbase (database), and Sun Application Server |
| ganesh1977_2000 | one thing Sun_Joe i like java for pure network programming |
| Sun_Joe | when you hit the "green button" to test your app, it deploys there |
| ganesh1977_2000 | and i still use it for that purpose |
| Sun_Joe | but you can gen a standard WAR file and put it anywhere |
| elousiv568 | any iead when mustant is going to be release? |
| elousiv568 | mustang that is |
| doctor_dark | I assume that creator can do EJBs, BMPs and CMPs not just servlets and jsps |
| Sun_Joe | admin: is there a way to turn off the "someone entered/exited the room" messages |
| Sun_Joe | admin: stuff is scrolling for me too fast |
| Enogipe | Sun_Joe: Options: Disable enter/exit |
| FogleBird | Sun_Joe: Options -> Disable Enter/Exit messages |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: Options -> Disable Enter/Exit |
| Sun_Joe | thanks! |
| Sun_Joe | ok - back to questions |
| elousiv568 | I will repeat in case you missed my question..any idea when mustang is going to be release? |
| FogleBird | Sun_Joe: got it? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | no Enogipe i always get booted out of when i compile |
| ingvarrr | elousiv568: see java.sun.com news |
| Sun_Joe | yes - I have enter/exit message off now - much better |
| koder | whats mustang? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | no i know you guys names, so when i'm in trouble |
| elousiv568 | its the newest realease of java |
| ganesh1977_2000 | yes what is mustang? car? |
| TAG | elousiv568: then it will be ready .. not earlier then .. |
| biacos | When Sun Application Server will support 1.5? |
| Sun_Joe | I don't know the exact dates - but I'm sure they're public |
| ingvarrr | ganesh1977_2000: mustang is java6.0 |
| Sun_Joe | folks - lets try to stick to Creator |
| koder | haven't had a chance to migrate to 1.5 yet, and already 6.0 |
| Sun_Joe | public info about Mustang and Sun Application Server is all available online |
| tgu | Sun_Joe: r u from korea? |
| elousiv568 | I hear that there are alot of front end gui enhancements in it. is this true? |
| tgu | Sun_Joe: joe sun :P |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Really I know sun in impressed with jar, war and now they are with car (mustang) |
| Sun_Joe | ha - no just visited there |
| Sun_Joe | (I assume you saw my blog) |
| chocmuffins | su |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: What is URL of your blog ? |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Sun_Joe: in mustang will Java have a super pick up |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Sun_Joe: lot of people in here did say java is slow et.. |
| Sun_Joe | I rarely update it, but its blogs.sun.com/joe |
| Sun_Joe | I honestly don't think Java is slow... |
| Sun_Joe | let me explain |
| doctor_dark | Su |
| Sun_Joe | it is easy to write inefficient code in any language |
| elousiv568 | hahah....very true |
| TAG | lironk: City is bank = they have money, Sun has Java ;-) |
| doctor_dark | Sun_Joe: Does creator only do Servlets and JSPs or the full J2EE spec is supported ... including EJBs, BMPs and CMPs ? |
| Sun_Joe | in the Java platform, you have to pay some overhead when the VM "thunks" to the native platform |
| lironk | ;-) |
| alangelov | :) |
| Sun_Joe | so if you write ineffient code, you pay |
| Sun_Joe | but Java can be *very* fast indeed |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Sun_Joe: yes in sun platform only |
| Sun_Joe | and faster than native in some cases where the dynamic optimizations of HotSpot make a huge difference |
| elousiv568 | develop on a sunblade 2500 and java will fly |
| binarius | Sun_Joe: Where Java does have some performance issues is in float-point |
| Sun_Joe | doctor_dark: Creator 1 and Creator 2 do JSF - which is JSP/J2EE |
| TAG | Sun_Joe: Thanks for a chat ! Please keep blogging ! |
| pinano | Sun_Joe: What you're saying is that "thunk"ing creates inefficient code; is there any way your compiler / IDE could warn you about that? |
| koder | whats thunking? |
| gdiego | GL ALL! THX FOR THE CHAT |
| Sun_Joe | its not the thunking (or passing into the VM) that causes inefficient code - its the fact that that has to happen on a VM |
| parker | Indeed, thanks for coming out, Joe. Take it easy. |
| Sun_Joe | so if you write inefficient code, you're likely to get "bitten" |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Sun_Joe: thanks Sun_Joe that was my silly question but still i love java for network programming |
| ganesh1977_2000 | Good luck ya all |
| doctor_dark | g l all |
| Sun_Joe | glad to hear that ;-) |
| elousiv568 | sun joe: How much longer are you going to be around for? |
| Sun_Joe | well I was hoping to answer some more Creator questions today, but them's the breaks! ;-) |
| Sun_Joe | I'm booked until 6pm PDT ;-) |
| p45c4l | ok, thanks Sun_Joe |
| Sun_Joe | I can answer a few more... |
| pinano | thanks Sun_Joe |
| Sun_Joe | thanks everyone for your time |
| jmpld40 | you can ask any questions on the sun forum |
| Sun_Joe | good luck in your coding! |
| antiw | Thanks, Sun_Joe |
| jmpld40 | http://forums.topcoder.com/?module=ThreadList&forumID=504997&sortField=9&sortOrder=0 |
| Sun_Joe | and good night and/or good morning to you all (wherever you are in the world) |
| Sun_Joe | oh, and one more thing... |
| kats | thanks for the chat |
| Sun_Joe | Java Rules! ;-) |
| jmpld40 | thanks for chatting Joe |
| Sun_Joe | you're welcome |
| Sun_Joe | talk to you later... |
