TCO08 Sponsored by VeriSign

Chat transcript from SRM 393
Handle Comment
jmpld40 Welcome to the VeriSign Chat!
evilkyro1965 are the room winer won prize in this srm?
evilkyro1965 are the room winer won prize in this srm?
hatred i dont think so
irancoldfusion evilkyro1965: no
evilkyro1965 so who will won prize? number 1 winner?
evilkyro1965 so who will won prize? number 1 winner?
irancoldfusion evilkyro1965: no one
c4pt0r nobody~
evilkyro1965 so sad :)
yoga1290 no prizes @ all?
VeriSign_Pat Hello everyone. I'm Pat Quaid, the Technical Director of VeriSign's Platform Products group
Sunny_05 shit man
_.Cha0s._ heelo pat
c4pt0r versign is the supporter of tco
Sunny_05 y r thr no prizes?
VeriSign_George And I'm George Hillenbrand, Principal engineer on a high available database project
rohitgupta14 VeriSign_Pat: Hello
VeriSign_Pat Our group is responsible for infrastructure at VeriSign, notably including the systems that do the DNS resolution for .com and .net
_.Cha0s._ hello george
Sunny_05 VeriSign_George: hiii
VeriSign_George Hi all
yoga1290 VeriSign_George: Is there any prize?
abhicool VeriSign_George: hi
tokstow VeriSign_Pat: nice.
jmpld40 no prizes today
_.Cha0s._ pat & george i am all ears
c4pt0r VeriSign_George: how can we make a project available
rohitgupta14 VeriSign_Pat: so what are High Availability, High Volume Systems.
_.Cha0s._ please pat & george begin
piyush.cusat ve
donalexey Hi, I am interested to know how much do you guys earn anually!
c4pt0r donalexey: ha ~~good question~!
VeriSign_Pat In the world of .com and .net DNS, highly available means essentially 100% availability, in addition to world-wide availability
VeriSign_Pat ... and high volume means a half a million transactions per second, in total
_.Cha0s._ u guys using IBM HACMP
VeriSign_George The database I'm developing has a budget of about 2 minutes a year and needs to do roughly 50,000 transactions per second.
Grebie i visited verisign's booth at ces. why did you guys not have any models?
tokstow VeriSign_Pat: what technology do u use?
piyush.cusat what is the career opportunitites for freshers at verisign
VeriSign_Pat I believe we do use IBM HACMP on the database backend... which has been responsible for at least one outage.
_.Cha0s._ seems u are not happy with IBM
rohitgupta14 VeriSign_George: what do you mean by budget of 2 minutes a year?
_.Cha0s._ downtime
Sunny_05 VeriSign_George: mention some of the products of verisign?
VeriSign_Pat Not a bit. But one of the important lessons about highly available systems is that everything has a failure rate
_.Cha0s._ yes true
VeriSign_George Sorry, downtime budget including all causes including upgrade, maintenance, human error
c4pt0r VeriSign_Pat: do u guys use Visual Studio?
VeriSign_Pat ... which is one reason we try to minimize the code path for the key infrastructure components
VeriSign_George Sort of like keeping an airplane up forever without landing.
VeriSign_Pat Virtually all of our work is on Unix, and most of it is in C++
_.Cha0s._ but do u guys want custom solutions to high availablity or what
Sunny_05 VeriSign_George: hey, wat r the different products of verisign?
piyush.cusat ya we would like to know bout the products
_.Cha0s._ i am also in Infrastructure Management Practice and kind of responsible for a big pharma company
VeriSign_George There are other parts of the company that are Java and or windows.
VeriSign_Pat For the most important applications we run, we ultimately end up developing custom components. Off-the-shelf is great, but only gets you so far.
slex piyush.cusat: Check your certificate for tis applet :)
rohitgupta14 VeriSign_George: The hardware for these systems must be special
Grebie V
VeriSign_George Normal hardware,
_.Cha0s._ but now a days High Availablity is being offered everywhere
VeriSign_Pat VeriSign's most important businesses revolve around certificates for SSL (etc) and the .com DNS registry
Sunny_05 VeriSign_George: r thr internship oppurtunities available in summer?
rohitgupta14 VeriSign_George: so what makes them suitable for handeling such a high load
VeriSign_George Making the hardware less fault tolerant doesn't address problems like earthquakes, Once you address earthquakes using distribution then the hardware failures are handled.
_.Cha0s._ let me get this u want HA for certificates or for your DNS
Karalabe _.Cha0s._: I'd say both :)
VeriSign_George Lots of folks talk about HA, but they generally mean High availability when the system is ""supposed"" to be up, not all the time.
VeriSign_Pat Our part in that -- George and my part -- is to build infrastructure that supports those businesses. For the most part, that means resolution systems (DNS resolution and, for example, OCSP), but also database work like George's
drako hi all , is verisign hiring in india ??
manaya :>
maniek what is (the order od magnitude) number of machines that do the 50k transactions per second?
Brahmand u connect to database through C++?
_.Cha0s._ can u give me an idea about your infrastructure
yoga1290 verisign is hiring where?
VeriSign_George A single machine needs to handle the 50K/second, but the system has mirrors that can take over within seconds and pickup right where original machine left off
VeriSign_Pat Most of our provisioning (ie getting stuff into the DB) is done through traditional Java/J2EE apps.
Brahmand but u said u did use C++ then why not for database?
yoga1290 VeriSign_George: verisign is hiring where?
VeriSign_George BTW, Pat and I aren't in position to talk about hiring or salaries, just high availabily/performance
Karalabe VeriSign_Pat: So you use Java for database and C++ for everything else?
_.Cha0s._ VeriSign guys an idea about your infrastructure would be great
_.Cha0s._ what's u r datacenter like
VeriSign_Pat Right, most provisioning is Java, because it's well-suited for that. DNS resolution is extremely high volume, so we use C++ to get every last cycle out of the hardware
VeriSign_George Didn't mention this earlier, but the heavy lifting systems use in memory databases.
VeriSign_George We're essentially working against in fairly specialized area that values availability over everything and performance over everything except availability
jbnpaul What type of servers do you use at verisign for DNS translation
VeriSign_Pat VeriSign has 3 datacenters for its key apps: primary, alternate primary, and disaster recover
Karalabe VeriSign_Pat: But wouldn't C++ database access speed up things instead of java?
VeriSign_Pat ... and in addition to that, we have many points of presence around the world for serving DNS
VeriSign_George The in memory database is C++, but the access code with the customer logic is running Java on multiple application servers.
samshu hello ppl
VeriSign_Pat In the 3 main datacenters are the databases themselves; resolution happens in the many points-of-presence
Karalabe These datacenters you mention, are these operational all the time, of does the disaster center only process requests if the other two is out?
_.Cha0s._ obviously Karalbe what else do u except
VeriSign_George The multiplicity of application servers makes raw performance less of an issue (still important) while the need to maximize throughput on the single database image make C++ important
samshu ca i logout and come back at the start time??
maniek I guess an important part of Your infrastructure must be the network part..
jbnpaul How are these database machines and request service machines architectured?
drako VeriSign_George: why not use opensource frames works like hibernate ??
VeriSign_Pat Good question. Only one of the core datacenters is active at a time. We might switch between the two primary datacenters on a month-to-month basis, but the DR... well let's hope that doesn't get used
samshu ANYONE plz tell me can i logout and cum bak at the start time????
shuaib.akram samshu: yes u can
Ashesh samshu: yes, you can
shuaib.akram samshu: but be sure to come at 8 25
VeriSign_George There's a project here to use hibernate from the client, but hibernate tends to move more data to the client which increases network use
shuaib.akram 8:25 PM
jbnpaul samshu: yes you can log out and come back any time. Make sure to be here before the SRM starts else u will lose ur minutes
VeriSign_Pat About the architecture: at the resolution sites, we have a large number of machines that interface with the network, handing DNS itself
VeriSign_Pat ... plus a smaller set of larger-memory machines, running an in-memory database, that actually provide the data
VeriSign_GeorgeOur performance load is at the point that box performance is limited by the total number of packets into and out of the serve.
_.Cha0s._VeriSign_Pat what is the middleware u use
VeriSign_PatIt looks a little like a traditional app-server/db arrangement, but build for ultimate speed
Kewl_guyGeorge : If you were given a choice between Hibernate and EJB 3, which one would u prefer?
shuaib.akramhi everyone
VeriSign_PatOn the resolution side, in the spirit of minimizing layers, we use no middleware. Just socket communication.
_.Cha0s._kind of raw then
_.Cha0s._just app talking to the database
VeriSign_GeorgeThere's another group building clients, that using EJB, not sure what version. They currently use Oracle Server. I'm working on next generation to use custom database.
VeriSign_PatEntirely raw. To give you an idea of the operational environment, if we accidently had a single malloc() in the resolution path, our performance would drop by 60%
jbnpaulYes memory access is too fast compared to network packet access. So are you using custom server solutions ( sun for example) which can handle multiple network adapters
shuaib.akramhello i am an ece engineering student can any one tell me whats the future of me??
VeriSign_GeorgeThe Hibernate/EJB question is discussion in the client side group.
Kewl_guyOkey dokey! Is Verisign into any other software development apart from security software?
VeriSign_PatWe have a number of different types of servers out there -- in fact we always have at least two types of everything, to ensure diversity
VeriSign_GeorgeThe future of every me is great if you accept fact that you make your future, not someone else.
VeriSign_GeorgeEven multiple network adapters aren't enough. Performance cost per packet is high relative to other processing.
_.Cha0s._Pat how much uptime do u actually deliver
VeriSign_Pat... but we mostly focus on commodity gear, since relatively exotic gear tends not to be as reliable
maniekDo You guys do any active development there? Well, the DNS works, why change anything?
_.Cha0s._see i know a bit bout google datacenter they use cheap PC with Linux and kind of distributed computing
_.Cha0s._in the event 1 pc goes down the other comes up
VeriSign_PatOn the DNS resolution side, we have 100% availability for about 10 years now (knock on wood...)
_.Cha0s._so how have u guys planned u r infrastructure
Karalabe_.Cha0s._: Yes, but google processes a lot for a single packet
VeriSign_GeorgeVerisign is focusing on it's core of DNS, security, but there are lots of sub branches to these.
VeriSign_Pat... but note that's system-wide availability. We have individual sites go down relatively often, frequently due to provider issues
VeriSign_GeorgeOur business differs from goole, they do more per packet, we do more packets.
jbnpaulHow long does it take Verisign to distribute a new DNS info added, to all the servers
_.Cha0s._so what do u guys are looking for now
_.Cha0s._i mean a solution
VeriSign_PatThat Google point is about right -- at some level, you need lots of hardware, and we too use lots of small Linux boxes with automatic, immediate failover
_.Cha0s._for exactly what
VeriSign_PatIf you make a change to a .com or .net domain, we'll typically distribute the change world-wide in less than 3 minutes
Kewl_guyGeorge: You folks out there work on IDS and other wireless security stuff too?
_.Cha0s._are u facing some challenge in existing setup
_.Cha0s._how much time it is currently taking to update the change world wide
VeriSign_GeorgeA key focus now is bringing the kind of availabilty the resolution servers have to other systems whose availability requirement is becoming more stringent.
VeriSign_PatOne interesting challenge that's perhaps not obvious is keeping track of the system itself and its immediate environment, and determining whether we have a problem or if it's a provider's problem
VeriSign_PatOr in other words: monitoring and reporting is an ongoing challenge
VeriSign_GeorgePart of our core value proposition is world wide scale with better than commerical availability.
jbnpaulCan you elaborate the core technology/concept used for HA at Verisign
VeriSign_PatAbout the "how long to distribute" point: another aspect of our work is that a single mistake can break DNS for a whole company. So data integrity is incredibly important to us.
VeriSign_GeorgeChallenge in existing setup is that attack volumes keep going up, but availability can't be compromised.
_.Cha0s._attack volumes meaning
VeriSign_George_.Cha0s._: attack volume is traffic trying to compromise availability
_.Cha0s._u mean DOS
VeriSign_George_.Cha0s._: that's part of it
_.Cha0s._what else George
VeriSign_PatAt VeriSign we have several approaches to HA, depending on the product. For example, our current database infrastructure uses a fairly traditional architecture (HA servers, EMC, synchronous replication to a separate data center, etc)
_.Cha0s._what other kind of traffic
_.Cha0s._can compromise availability
VeriSign_George_.Cha0s._: All important systems are probed for weakness, we win if none are found.
VeriSign_PatGeorge is working on a system that provides HA for the core database transactions in a somewhat different way
nitdgpkonqueror: congrats for making it to the onsite round
nitdgpkonqueror: u r the only indian this year
AnilKishorekonqueror: this year TOO :)
nitdgpkonqueror: i pray u dont have any VISA problems
idrackzhi to all
AnilKishorekonqueror: He said... he have .. :(
Fozzhello verisign!
VeriSign_PatFor resolution systems, we have an entirely custom architecture that starts with multiple data centers, and flows down through active/active redundancy on the site
AnilKishorekonqueror: also he has some Intern.. scheduled :(
FozzWhat locations do you have?
AnilKishorenitdgp: also he has some Intern.. scheduled :(
Tomatohello verisign
javadev1VeriSign_George: Is there Viri certifcates for Java Midlets
AnilKishorego to their chat room
nitdgpAnilKishore: which year he is in?
VeriSign_Georgejavadev1: outside my area, I don't know
nitdgpAnilKishore: where is he from?
_.Cha0s._Pat for DNS u use BIND customised to u r needs or some other product
javadev1VeriSign_George: hum, thanks
nitdgpAnilKishore: ok
VeriSign_Georgejavadev1: sorry I can't help
VeriSign_PatWe have a customized DNS resolution system built on ATLAS, our resolution framework
javadev1VeriSign_George: What are the main programming languages u use?
VeriSign_Pat... although we use BIND for some other domains
5steveVeriSign_George: is there any intership opportunity provided by u guys?
_.Cha0s._u handle only .com & .net domains
FozzVeriSign_Pat: Where are you based/hiring for?
VeriSign_Georgejavadev1: My particular groups is 90% C++, a little java. Other groups are 100% Java. There's a smattering of Perl and similar scripting language work.
VeriSign_PatWe also handle .tv and .cc and other lesser-known domains, and we operate two of the 13 root servers
javadev1VeriSign_George: What programming tools you are using for java?
VeriSign_PatGeorge and I are in Dulles, VA (just outside of DC), and the company HQ is in Mountain View, CA
FozzVeriSign_Pat: thanks!
nitdgpchini_1010: hi
nitdgpchini_1010: ready?
nitdgpchini_1010: for the 1st SRM?
VeriSign_Georgejavadev1: Hi to recent arrivals, Pat and I are new to forum and hope we're doing reasonable job of keeping up.
chini_1010nitdgp: kya karna hai
5steveVasheginRoman: what kinda qualities do the company look for when hiring?
nitdgpchini_1010: kuch nahi karna
nitdgpchini_1010: abhi active contest me jana hoga
nitdgpchini_1010: jab enter button
nitdgpchini_1010: enabled ho jayega
nitdgpchini_1010: enter karna
VeriSign_PatWhen hiring, I like Joel-on-software's advice: look for a) smart people who can b) get things done
izulinadmins: will there be a possibility to be a 'kosovo' country coder?
nitdgpchini_1010: still 10 min to go to enter the rooms
VeriSign_PatTwo distinct qualities, and you need them both. But particular skills? Less important.
izulinadmins: as US gov recognized it as a country
Abednegoizulin: nice!
izulinAbednego: huh? :p
leadhyena_inranizulin: I have to refer to our legal department about it
Abednegoizulin: +1 insightful :)
leadhyena_inranizulin: they handle all of the country configurations for us
izulinleadhyena_inran: tought case IMHO
izulinAbednego: :D
leadhyena_inranizulin: we can always check it
zuloizulin: you don't like to be polak ?
VeriSign_Georgejavadev1: Hi
izulinzulo: well, I will always represent poland
REPERTOIREwhat is the tip for getting a good job?
izulinzulo: and I'm not asking because I like/dislike idea of Kosovo
_.Cha0s._admins: hey how can i view chat history
izulinAbednego: It's tought question, whether allow Kosovo
izulinAbednego: or Turkish republic of Cyprus
izulinAbednego: or Abchazja
REPERTOIREofcourse allow kosovo..........
REPERTOIREits for the mankind
FixmanREPERTOIRE: But that would be a message for Chechenya
VeriSign_GeorgeREPERTOIRE: Best tip out of my experience is willingness to try something you're not sure you can do because you can do more than you think.
izulinREPERTOIRE: and what about Taiwan?
FixmanREPERTOIRE: And for many countries, making lots of rich countries poor and de-estabilizing worlds economy
izulinAFAIR more countries already recognizes kosovo than taiwan
agrbinthere are no more spots?
5steveVasheginRoman: so would you consider TopCoder experience a good thing to be add to my resume
izulinthere are some countires recognized only by one other country
vgiacomeagrbin: mozda si ti prevelik
zilupeThose all are NP-complete problems
redeemeryeah, how would you rate topcoder exp?
izulinlike turkish republic of kosovo
javadev1VeriSign_George: hi George
VeriSign_GeorgeVasheginRoman: TopCoder can be good, like anything you do well.
CoreDumpedadmins: hmm 1.5k users
Abednegojmpld40: me too. thanks!
redeemerhow do youll guys rate someone with a reasonable topcoder score?
javadev1VeriSign_George: Where is VS located?
nlvraghavendrahi da lakshmanan
gmohanlakshmanann: lakshmanann
thocev5CoreDumped: SRMs tend to fill up latelly
redeemeri mean, if he has a red score obviously he is good etc etc
gmohanlakshmanann: dai mokka wat da
nlvraghavendralakshmanann: hi
redeemerbut what about someone who just has a topcoder score
redeemerwhatever may it be
shenligghi everyone
redeemerdo you assign any weightage to the fact that he has bothered to attempt programming?
gmohanlakshmanann: what daee ea
nlvraghavendralakshmanann: attending after a long time da..
redeemer*programmin competitively
VeriSign_Georgejavadev1: Pat and I are in Dulles Va. Head office is Mountainview CA. We also have some distributed people.
litonshuhow many people does verisign employ?
infalHalo Japa
HornaxNikelandjelo: ??????
REPERTOIREREPERTOIRE: what is the requirement of getting job in your company?
VeriSign_PatWhen you're hiring someone, you tend to take lots of factors into consideration. So yes, participating would help, as would a good score. But the main factor is still about you, not what you've done.
Shedal???? ??????
5steveVasheginRoman: so when interviweing, what kinda questions are mostly being asked?
jmpld40Thanks so much to the VeriSign folks for chatting today.
Forykhayyam: ya no hubo lugar :(
VeriSign_Georgeredeemer: When we look for people we look for folks who are both skilled and passionate. Top coder experience is a sign of passion, but not only sign.
tstan436thanks verisign guys
tibixyou should read RandsInRepose, google it
VeriSign_PatThanks to you for the questions. It's been fun!
imrankane2005VeriSign_Pat: How much is the importance of communication skill then coding talent for job oppertunity ??
redeemerVeriSign_George: true, just wanted your opinion ont hat, thanks
ljwan12gmohan: dajiahao
prashant_elecredeemer: HI
VasheginRomanG_uniti - Preved!!!
prashant_elecredeemer: helloo
VeriSign_PatWhen it's all said and done, communication is one of the most important things we do. Even coding is essentially a form of communication, from you to a future programmer. So, yeah, it's important.
prashant_elecredeemer: wassup
redeemerprashant_elec: hi
raviupreti85VeriSign_George: Hello, what particularly i need to be strong in for good chances of getting into your company
redeemerprashant_elec: whats up?
redeemerprashant_elec: do i know you btw?
raviupreti85VeriSign_George: VeriSign_George: Hello, what particularly i need to be strong in for good chances of getting into your company
Arks2 min
redeemerprashant_elec: ?
redeemerprashant_elec: hello?
prashant_elecredeemer: 3mins to doom
redeemerprashant_elec: heh
redeemerprashant_elec: who is this though?
redeemerprashant_elec: or are you jsut talking to random people :)
prashant_elecredeemer: i said 3 mins to doom
Kewl_guyPat: Well said Pat, about the communication thingy! Well, C ya later! :-) Chow
redeemerprashant_elec: k
prashant_elecredeemer: i thought u were someone else
prashant_elecredeemer: :)
5steveVasheginRoman: thank you guys
VeriSign_Georgeraviupreti85: Positions vary in skill requirements. My particular groupt requires C++, but company is looking for people who make things happen.
redeemerprashant_elec: ok
jbnpaulBye bye folks into arena now ...
VeriSign_Georgeraviupreti85: rav... ok
redeemerprashant_elec: from mumbai?
prashant_elecredeemer: nopes hyderabad
VeriSign_Georgeraviupreti85: to to go. Thanks.