|
| Sun_Joe | Just to clarify from what was said in the broadcast - I'm willing to answer any Java questions... |
| Sun_Joe | (if I can) ;-) |
| CVT | Ok. What do you think about building the screen in XML and then use the right api to bind it into the code? |
| aradil | Is this new development tool faster then Netbeans? I liked netbeans, but my laptop just doesn't have the ram to run it well. |
| CVT | thinlet, swixml.... |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: building a screen in XML implies an XML-based UI schema |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: if you have one, it should have a layer that binds it to code already |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: so you'd have to be more specific |
| Sun_Joe | aradil: The Creator product is built on top of Netbeans |
| Sun_Joe | aradil: as a set of modules |
| aradil | Ah, ok. |
| Sun_Joe | aradil: I hate to sound cliche' - but it really isn't very expensive to setup a machine that is suitable for IDE development |
| Sun_Joe | aradil: go get some RAM! ;-) |
| aradil | Hahaha...Yeah. I was just about to say that. |
| aradil | However... |
| mkhan5 | does Java Studio Creator functionality close to VS.net |
| aradil | My multi-thousand dollar per year tuition makes that hard;) |
| Sun_Joe | aradil: I hear you! I did finally pay it all off... |
| Sun_Joe | aradil: and it was worth it |
| aradil | hahaha |
| aradil | Yea. |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: the intent of JSC was to appeal to the muscle memory of VB folks |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: and follow a model similar to VS.NET |
| mkhan5 | wat JSC offers that VS does not |
| Sartak | Hmm. That's good. :) One of the very few things I miss about Visual Basic is its rapid GUI generation. |
| red_gladiator | admins: can JSC be used to make GUI for non-web applications. for example, a chat client |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: JSC offers a Java deployment platform - that has to be the #1 thing |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: can JSC be used to make GUI for non-web applications. for example, a chat client |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: in its current form, it is focused on web applications |
| mkhan5 | in VS there are redundant code that gets generated when we drag-drop any graphical component, how about JSC |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: but thick client apps are in the plans |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: have a look at the matisse project on netbeans (incluced in netbeans 5 beta) |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: when a comp is dropped in JSC, the code *is* the persistence |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: meaning - it is a two-way tool |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: Are there any good tools for fast GUI generation in Java? All those API's take a lot of time to learn |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: you can hand code and it will show the visual layout |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: and when you manipulate the visual layout, it uses regular Java/JSP code to persist it |
| mkhan5 | Sun_Joe: how about debugging |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: I highly recommend checking out Matisse (in NetBeans 5 beta) |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: its free too |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: and quite impressive |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: Is matisse in the beta stage? |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: I mean, is it reliable? |
| aradil | Sun_Joe: What IS matisse? |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: the debugging in Creator is based on Netbeans' JSP/web debugger, with is *very* powerful and full-featured |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: Matisse is very stable |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: it is technically beta - but that's just a formality |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: it works very very well |
| mkhan5 | Sun_Joe: JSC supports any report generation tool like crystal report |
| Sun_Joe | if you're familiar with the Apple interface builder product - it feels kinda like that |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: the crystal reports folks have a set of JavaServer Faces (JSF) components for their reporting |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: which work fine in Creator |
| Sun_Joe | mkhan5: any JSF comps do |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: Where do you see Java in 10 years from now? Will its mainstream place be taken over by some other language? |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: Ooooh! FUN QUESTION! I love these! |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: <crystal ball> |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: In 10 years... |
| aradil | lawl |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: Java will still be a strong language, though it will have evolved quite a bit |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: the line between desktop, web, and mobile applications will have dissolved completely |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: we'll just talk about "applications" |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: or "services" |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: also, the voice (VOIP) stuff will start to play a larger role in applications |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: Are the new features in JDK 5.0 stable enough to be deployed in a large work environment? |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: voice reco is very far along (I used to be a CTO at a voice company), but hasn't hit the "mainstream" because access to the phone systems was limited |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: You are talking about voice, but I belive voice is only now, not future. Can you look a little bit FURTHER? |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: now that VOIP is becoming popular, voice apps will become mainstream |
| Sartak | ludovic: Do you mean telepathy? :) |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: is JDK 5.0 stable enough for large deployments? Ask Google! |
| Sun_Joe | red_gladiator: they are totally deployed on JDK 5 |
| red_gladiator | Sun_Joe: :) |
| Sun_Joe | ok - further than 10 years |
| ivern | Sun_Joe: a little question of my own. do you see voice becoming a viable source of input in the near future? |
| Sun_Joe | the screen, keyboard, mouse thing will go the way of the dinosaur |
| Sartak | I rather like keyboard input. |
| aradil | Me too |
| Tseng | Me too. |
| Sun_Joe | look at telematics (like OnStar) as a model of the type of interaction you will have with connected applications |
| Tseng | Don't take my vim away. |
| aradil | " " " emacs ". |
| Sun_Joe | or - this sounds funny - look at Star Trek |
| Sartak | **Sartak chuckles at ludovic. |
| Sun_Joe | "computer, make me a latte" |
| Tseng | I look forward to that. |
| acsaba | /msg abi |
| Sun_Joe | I look forward to making that sort of thing happen |
| Sun_Joe | "the only way to predict the future acurrately is to make it happen yourself" |
| Sartak | Sun_Joe: What do you think JSC's biggest shortcoming is right now? |
| Sun_Joe | that quote is from the Ansari X-Prize guy |
| ivern | Sun_Joe: i think that's why we all got into programming :) |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: What do you think are the advantages that JDK 5 has over .Net? |
| Sun_Joe | Sartak: the biggest shortcoming of JSC (in my opinion) is probably the footprint issues |
| Sun_Joe | Sartak: as were alluded to earlier |
| Sartak | Ah, yeah. |
| Sun_Joe | Sartak: it could and will be tighter |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: another fun one... |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: the biggest advantage is totally non-technical |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: its a business decision to use a more open platform |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: where more companies have a stake |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: and the competition is strong |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: Can we use JSC for creating DeskTop applications...? |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: for technical differences there are a lot of ways to look at it |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: I would be hard-pressed to say one is better than the other on technical merits alone |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: they are very similar |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: (MS paid a lot of money for Sun patents) |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: I think the real key difference is the business one I described earlier |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: more innovation happens in Java |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: which you get to leverage |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: Can we develop swing based in JSC |
| CVT | Can you give an example of one these patents? |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: JSC is initially focused on web apps, but desktop is in the roadmap |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: same answer as above |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: I don't know of a specific one, but I bet there are a bunch having to do with portable bytecodes |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: so what are major advantages of JSC over netbeans or eclipse |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: and a bunch of the language features of C# |
| CVT | I didn't know about that. Intersting. |
| Sartak | How many developers are working on JSC? |
| anand_nalya | Sun_Joe: What does Sun-Google alliance means for Microsoft? |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: JSC vs NetBeans vs Eclipse |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: these are really different animals |
| Sartak | I'm afraid I don't have many Java-intensive questions, I don't use the language much. ;) |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: NetBeans and Eclipse are certainly in the same camp (apples to apples) |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: but JSC is something built on top of NB to make building web applications easy |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: (and *very* easy for VB folks) |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: oh right! |
| Sun_Joe | Sartak: I don't know the exact number, but I know there is a lot of traffic in the forums (developers.sun.com) |
| Sun_Joe | its free to download and try out |
| Sun_Joe | so lots of folks have |
| Sun_Joe | and its only $99/year to own |
| Sun_Joe | which includes an SDN (Sun Developer Network) subscription |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: is JSC is extendable? |
| Sun_Joe | so here's a Q for you all... |
| Sun_Joe | how many of you have tried JSC? |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: me not yet :( |
| miller | no |
| Sun_Joe | or even better - how many of you participated in the top coder components event with JSC? |
| ludovic | Yeah. Another touch question. I did see Java lack official documents when compared with MSDN, what is the best way to get rich and easy-to-access documents? |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: Yes, JSC is extendable - its built on NetBeans |
| miller | i use eclipse |
| CVT | I didn't because I don't like the way we have to develop web app's today. |
| Sun_Joe | miller: sorry to hear that ;-) |
| Sun_Joe | miller: I hope you get better soon ;-) |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: elaborate on that |
| ludovic | Not a lot time during semsters. So, no way to do compoments now |
| miller | i hope so |
| lironk | so what's up with the joint google initiative? is it something that can really take down MS-Office, or just unrealistic publicity? |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: But I a suprised not to see much promotions from SUN on JSC? at least in its sites? |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: what facilities available in JSC for languages other than java. For instance javascript is a nightmare for webapp developers |
| Sun_Joe | lironk: you know what I know about the joint Google initiative |
| CVT | Html + Css + Javascript + JSP (for example).. A mix of things.... |
| CVT | The user interface is poor when we talk about interaction. |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: There are a lot of promotions that I have seen for JSC, but I suppose I am pre-disposed to notice them |
| CVT | Drag & Drop, right click... |
| lironk | i know only what i read in the news. i thought they might be telling you guys more :( |
| CVT | lot of pages reloading. |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: There is a JavaScript editor (syntax highlighting, etc) - but no *major* support as I'm sure you're after |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: does it support javascript debugger? |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: you should look into JSF (JavaServer Faces) - this is a component model for web apps |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: it encapsulates a lot of that stuff so you don't have to think about it |
| Sun_Joe | CVT: puts the work in the hands of the "component developer" |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: So the latest version of JSC is compliant with what version of J2EE? |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: that would have to be client-side (embedded in a browser) so no - but I recommend using FireFox for that |
| CVT | Ok. I'll take a look. |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: I am really bad about version numbers... so I'm not even going to try to guess |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: check out developers.sun.com/jscreator |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: I'm sure its listed there |
| Sun_Joe | ok - another Q from me... |
| Sun_Joe | What frameworks are you folks using for building web apps? |
| Sun_Joe | JSF, Struts, Ruby on Rails, .... |
| Sun_Joe | (or raw hand-coding of servlets) |
| codelion | Sun_Joe: visual web developer |
| Sun_Joe | codelion: as in MS VS.NET? |
| Sun_Joe | or is that another product? |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: Struts |
| CVT | Hibernate |
| Sun_Joe | from what I understand, Struts is the current dominant framework out there... |
| Sun_Joe | with folks starting to look at JSF |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: JSTL + Stuts |
| Sun_Joe | (which is really an evolution of struts) |
| aradil | I helped with a web events calendar made in Ruby on Rails |
| miller | is it faster than eclipse?you know i still cannot resist the v of eclipse |
| Sun_Joe | personally - I find Eclipse to be pretty slow... |
| Sun_Joe | but I *was* the architect of JBuilder... so... |
| miller | i hope java will as fast as c++ someday |
| Sun_Joe | uhhh... news flash! |
| Sun_Joe | if you're not familiar with HotSpot, I suggest you do some homework |
| Sun_Joe | Java *is* FASTER than C++ in many cases |
| Sun_Joe | it is dynamically optimized at runtime |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: Yeah I agree |
| hazzaz | this may be slightly offtopic, is there a possibilty that java will truly be used for embedded systems? |
| miller | for example |
| Sun_Joe | where it appears slower is usually just bad code - no joke |
| Sun_Joe | you really *pay* for bad code in a bytecode system |
| Sun_Joe | hazzaz: I believe it is used for embedded systems today |
| Sun_Joe | hazzaz: have a look at the real-time java stuff |
| Sun_Joe | hazzaz: and at mobile phones |
| Sun_Joe | miller: for example.. |
| Sun_Joe | miller: any java bytecode that spends a lot of time in the Java heap mucking about with stuff |
| Sun_Joe | miller: will be dynamically optimized to make branches into inline segments |
| Sun_Joe | miller: and *statistically* optimized based on the running code |
| vaibhav_ace | Hello Joe |
| Sun_Joe | miller: where you "pay" is when you "thunk" from the java heap into native code (file i/o, etc) |
| Sun_Joe | miller: in those spots it has to call externally and marshall |
| Sun_Joe | miller: so you have to design java apps to be smart about this fact |
| Sun_Joe | miller: suck up what you need from the "outside world" then process as much as possible in Java |
| Sun_Joe | miller: it will *blaze* |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: I'm runninh EA2 on MacosX tiger on an 867Mhz G4 -- and the responsiveness of creator is dismal -- do you guys plan to address this -- i Mean the IDE really drags... |
| Sun_Joe | miller: another issue in java apps is "over-painting", or as I call it "bad code" |
| Sun_Joe | miller: if you repaint something 1000 times in a java app, it will feel slow |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: So, based on your answe for miller, Java would not suppose to support 3D graphics well in future? |
| Sun_Joe | miller: if you do it 1000 times in a native app, you won't even notice |
| miller | i think i need more study |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: I mean, 3D graphics nowdays needs a lot of direct access to memory and hardware, native code is necessory for these cases. |
| Sun_Joe | miller: create some tests and prove it to yourself |
| miller | i will thanks |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: actually, the 3D graphics stuff is pretty well optimized in a Java library |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: and does the "right" thing for pipelining |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: it is very fast |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: if you were calling your own JNI calls to do the work, it would have issues probably |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: but the built-in Java3D stuff is very fast |
| mihireng | hi joe |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: curious, how much RAM? |
| mihireng | i wanted to konw from where i can download creator |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: and just a note that we are working very closely with the Apple Java VM team (at Apple) |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: I'm not very familiar with java. But I'm wondering if java can work with DirectX or OpenGL well? As fast as if I use C++? |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: they use Creator as one of their testbeds for the VM |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: 384 ddr on a g4 powerbook.. |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: oooh - that's not much ram, really |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: I know that a lot of our R&D guys use macs and don't complain |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: but they have at least 1G ram |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: some have more |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: How much ram does the IDE need? I mean g4 laptops gap out at 512 I think... |
| Sun_Joe | mihireng: http://developers.sun.com/jscreator |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: I really am not sure (honestly), but the recommendations are posted at the above address |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: "system requirements" |
| miller | we don't so rich as you ,i use 256m ram |
| crystal_xmy | Hi joe. I am curious how JRE handle the native code and managed code both and prevent the former one from the later? |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: I'll check them out -- but I really do think its an excelent ID though -- udos to the developers... |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: Java uses DirectX and OpenGL direclty (internally) when you use Java2D |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: there is a full graphics library in Java that translates into those - in a very efficient way |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: Thanks. That's quite helpful information. Do you know can I use java to directly call opengl in my application? |
| Sun_Joe | ludovic: java.awt.Graphics2D |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: if java3d is using opengl and/or directX is it stil patform independent? |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: Thanks. I will check that out. |
| hazzaz | joe do u see java replace something like c++ as preferred lang for embedded systems in near future? |
| galantonp | Sun_Joe: how about Java3D ? I was thinking about looking into it .... |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: Yes, the Java2D stuff is totally portable |
| ludovic | lordhiru: opengl is not a problem. it is cross-platform |
| Sun_Joe | lordhiru: and gracefully degrades or emulates where it needs to |
| Sun_Joe | hazzaz: Yes, I do |
| Sun_Joe | hazzaz: but you would be best served by digging into the Real-Time Java stuff |
| Sun_Joe | hazzaz: which I believe James G is heavily into |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: yeag its 1GB -- time to upgrade... |
| Sun_Joe | sorry about that :-( |
| Sun_Joe | but it will be worth it |
| hazzaz | i ll do that joe thanks |
| Sun_Joe | I hope you find what you need! |
| Sun_Joe | (and it makes your job a lot easier) |
| Otaku | I'm c++ and like customization at rather low level (e.g. change the title bar color of a window...) simple (neophytic) question : is it possible with Java creator? |
| johny.pl | Hello, Joe. I've tried to use Sun JSC and I have problem with registering optional components in this tool under Linux |
| ludovic | 1G for JSC? |
| johny.pl | on JSC 2..0EA and on 1.0p7 |
| mutunus | ludovic: That what it says for macosx |
| ludovic | Otaku: I think that might be then platform dependent |
| Sun_Joe | Otaku: Java Studio Creator (JSC) is initially targetted at building web applications |
| Sun_Joe | Otaku: so at this point, no :-( |
| Otaku | ok thanks. |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: can I ask you a question about java swings? can we have custome shaped forms such as windows media player |
| Sun_Joe | sure |
| ludovic | mutunus: Huge! i cannt believe. VS2005 takes around 300M at startup, I think that is already huge! |
| Sun_Joe | that's actually an AWT question - and the current answer is no... :-( |
| Sun_Joe | we were just talking about this yesterday, actually (the Swing/AWT guys and myself) |
| Sun_Joe | it keeps getting put off |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: hope there will be a way to do it soon |
| Otaku | simply speaking: what *cannot* be done with JSC that can be done with the usual runtime...(roughly)? |
| Sun_Joe | I hope so too! |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: im realy in troube with that |
| Sun_Joe | well - actually there is a way... |
| Sun_Joe | but its tricky |
| mutunus | ludovic: I know ! I cant belive it either -- its a major memory hog... When I run EA2 it drags for about i minute when it creates a new projects... |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: use native code? |
| ludovic | Otaku: That's platform dependent. You need either your own libaray for the form rendering or hack it I think. |
| Sun_Joe | actually - you can do that too (use native code) |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: Care to give us the inside scoop on the Google/Sun thing? wink wink... |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: any other way? |
| Sun_Joe | or you can have a single Java frame, and do non-rectangular components inside it) |
| johny.pl | I'm disappointed JSC 2.0EA, because it has lower functionality, than NB 4.1, which JSC is based on :( |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: Sun is buying Google |
| ludovic | mutunus: Hope sun is improving it. Originally vs2005 has the same problem but they are improving it. |
| Sun_Joe | mutunus: ;-) |
| miller | Sun is buying Google?! |
| mutunus | Sun_Joe: That'd be great ... |
| Sun_Joe | miller: A joke |
| shomishu | renaming it to jGoogle |
| crystal_xmy | really? |
| butler | haha |
| Sun_Joe | miller: Soogle |
| mutunus | ludovic: I hope they fix it too... |
| Sun_Joe | miller: Sungle |
| Sun_Joe | miller: Goose |
| miller | aha |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: jaggle |
| Sun_Joe | ok folks wrapping up soon... |
| Sun_Joe | any more questions? |
| lordhiru | Sun_Joe: thanks joe |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: Can I use JSC as an alternate to SwingLayout? |
| Sun_Joe | I see folks dropping off to compete in their respective rooms... |
| Sun_Joe | good luck folks! |
| johny.pl | why JSC 2.0 has lower funct., than NB 4.1? |
| ludovic | Sun_Joe: Thanks Joe. Game is coming. See you! |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: it really uses CSS to do web layout |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: (not a java.awt.LayoutManager realm) |
| srinivaspsr | Sun_Joe: I mean componenets like Tree, Tabs etc..? |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: those components are included in JSC |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: they are JSF (JavaServer Faces) components |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: basically web versions of those things |
| Sun_Joe | srinivaspsr: they feel a lot like Swing comps - only for web |
| Sun_Joe | ok folks - I have to go too |
| Sun_Joe | thanks for the questions, and good luck! |
| ivern | thanks for stopping by, joe. good talk :) |
| Sun_Joe | thanks! |
