Handle	Comment
Sun_Ed	Let me start by introducing myself.
Sun_Ed	My name is Ed Burns
Sun_Ed	Some of you may know me from my blog on java.net
Sun_Ed	Sorry,
citrookie	hi ed
Sun_Ed	Firefox crashed when trying to paste the URL of my blog
Sun_Ed	Now I'm trying safari
Sun_Ed	Let me see if paste works there.
Abednego	use webstart. no browser dependency. ;-)
citrookie	i'm just want to ask is this new stuff from the sun will be free ???
mike	funny - Ed was asking about a webstart version just today
Sun_Ed	Yes, but i did'nt have time to install it.
Sun_Ed	Anyhow, the blog is http://weblogs.java.net/blog/edburns/
Sun_Ed	I'm the co spec lead for the JavaServer Faces specification.
mess	Ed, I have one question can you talk about production deployments of JSF
Sun_Ed	I'll be here for the next hour to answer your questions about JSF, and Sun Java Studio Creator.
Sartak	**Sartak bookmarks Ed's blog.
Sun_Ed	And also AJAX and JSF.
Sun_Ed	mess: sure, let's talk production deployments.
Sun_Ed	This question came up at the Java One 2005 Web Framework Smackdown
Sun_Ed	Fedex is using JSF for intranet applications.
Sun_Ed	ADP, the paycheck processing company is using it for a mission critical customer faceing application.
Sun_Ed	**Sun_Ed tries pasting again
Sun_Ed	https://demopaystatements.adp.com/index.jsf
Sun_Ed	Ahh, it worked.
Sun_Ed	However, I'd love to hear more about customer deployments.
citrookie	so ed what's new in the Java Studio Creator ?? would it be like the Visual Studio from Microsoft ??
mess	I saw a presentation at JavaOne with an energy company. It seemed to speed up web development significantly
Sun_Ed	mess: Can you please share more specifics about the presentation?
Sun_Ed	mess: remember any names?
Sun_Ed	This site also has some great resources on JSF in general, and JSF deployments in specific.
Sun_Ed	http://jsfcentral.com/trenches/
Sun_Ed	citrookie: What's new. Lots.
Sun_Ed	citrookie: for one thing, we have a world class component library that will be included with the tool
Sun_Ed	This library has sortable tables, trees, a really nice calendar chooser, various layout components
mess	Ed I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the company
Sun_Ed	mess: no problem. Was it a technical session or a BOF?
Sun_Ed	mess: do you remember what day it was on?
johncar	Sun_Ed: time from time I've had, sadly, to debug .jsp. JSR-45 compliant IDE/container allow to remote debug .jsp. I've got no idea about .jsf (haven't switched to that yet). Is it possible to debug/remote debug pages made using JSF?
mess	technical, it was a short presentation, I believe on Wednesday
Sun_Ed	mess: morning, evening, night?
Sun_Ed	johncar: If it's possible to debug a JSP with a JSR-45 IDE (most are these days) then it's possible to debug a JSF JSP page as well.
mess	It was on the conference floor
mess	not one of the main presentations
Sun_Ed	mess: OHHHH
Sun_Ed	I see
Sun_Ed	mess: thanks, I have access to the bof and technical presos, but not the show floor stuff.
Sun_Ed	mess: if it comes up, please email me.
mess	I'll definitely get the name of it tomorrow
mess	and get it to you
mike	Sun_Ed: for those that may not know... what is JavaServer Faces?
mike	Sun_Ed: an how is it beneficial?
Sun_Ed	johncar: The nice thing about JSF's usage about JSP is that the JSPs don't do any work other than populating the JSF components with values provided by the page author.
Sun_Ed	mike: sure, that's a great question.
johncar	firefox segfaulted for me too :)
Sun_Ed	Well, everyone knows what a web framework is, right?
Sun_Ed	Heck, most people probably have written one or two. It seems an "in" thing to do right now...write your own web framework.
johncar	sure
Sun_Ed	Anyhow, JavaServer Faces, JSF, was created to allow the java community to rise above the fracas of all those different frameworks and produce a best of breed web framework with input from the whole Java community
Sun_Ed	via the JCP.
Sun_Ed	That said, JSF is an easy to use, tool friendly, Object Oriented web framework
Sun_Ed	with first class inversion of control and MVC concepts.
Abednego	what is "inversion of control"?
johncar	Sun_Ed: which IoC container do you use?
Sun_Ed	JSF leverages accepted best practices for component design, event processing, and web navigation.
Sun_Ed	Abednego: An oft cited reference on Inversion of Control, IoC, can be found at http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/injection.html,
Sun_Ed	but briefly
mike	Sun_Ed: what level of corporate adoption are you seeing with JSF?
mike	Sun_Ed: better than expected? about what you expected? too early to tell?
Sun_Ed	ioc describes a practice where the framework manages resources for you and calls methods you define.
Sun_Ed	mike: I think we're seeing much better than expected adoption.
Sun_Ed	mike: but let's disect the question a little more.
Sun_Ed	there's tool adoption, component adoption, and application adoption.
Sun_Ed	JSF has achieved more tool adoption in a shorter amount of time than any other java technology since swing
Sun_Ed	IDEs exist from Sun, Oracle, IBM, Exadel, Borland and more.
mess	Sun_Ed: Are there any plans for a standard design time API as part of JSF spec?
mess	Sun_Ed: I assume each tool has their own Design Time API?
Sun_Ed	As for component adoption, you can by off the shelf components from Business Objects, ILOG, SoftwareFX, Otrix and more.
Sun_Ed	mess: great question, absolutely there are plans.
Sun_Ed	We've broken down the design time problem into two related JSRs
Sun_Ed	JSR-276 standardizes the jsf component metadata, such as: what components does this component work with? What skill level does this component require? etc
Abednego	Sun_Ed: got it. thanks. the article helped. ;-)
Sun_Ed	JSR-276 is at https://jsf-metadata-spec-public.dev.java.net/
Sun_Ed	The other JSR, 273, is focused on the true interactive design time environment, not just for JSF, but for ui components in general.
Sun_Ed	JSR-273 is at https://jbdt-spec-public.dev.java.net/
Sun_Ed	I'd like to hear from people what you've heard about JSF
Sun_Ed	What's the general buzz?
Sun_Ed	I'm told by some who have attended the no fluff just stuff seminar that people have some strong opinions about it.
Excilus	Why doesn't sun make a version of java more amenble to technical purposes? Many of my colleagues are trying to code in Java (it's all they know, and it's very good) but it just isn't fast enough
Excilus	*scientific purposes I should say
mike	for those interested... Ed's blog can be found at http://weblogs.java.net/blog/edburns/
Sun_Ed	Excilus: I'll have to get back to you on that because I don't have an answer for that right now.
Excilus	Sun_Ed: Sure
Sun_Ed	Excilus: I can say, though, that the API does have things, like a great floating point system, for scientific computing.
Excilus	Sun_Ed: That I'm aware of
Excilus	Sun_Ed: That's one of the big bonuses :)
mess	Sun_Ed: The biggest problems we saw running the component competitions was the design time API and deployment API
Sun_Ed	Excilus: please send me a mail to ed.burns@sun.com
mess	Sun_Ed: most of the developers and designers really like learning a new API
Sun_Ed	mess: yes, those areas just didn't make the cut for 1.0, and they are too big for 1.1 and 1.2, so we're tackling them in those separate products
srikanth.l	hi
WaterIsPure	hello. will you post the entire conversation log for this session ?
debugger123	hai
mess	Sun_Ed: Are there plans for any new renderers?
Sun_Ed	I just received a link for more feature set information on the next release of Java Studio Creator
Sun_Ed	It's at
Sun_Ed	http://developers.sun.com/jscreator/
Sun_Ed	mess: That's a good question because it allows me to explain one of the philosophies behind the java platform
mike	WaterIsPure: it will be posted, yes
Sun_Ed	and the JCP in specific.
WaterIsPure	mike thanks
Sun_Ed	A JCP spec must draw a balance between requiring enough functionality to allow users to build compelling apps that are still portable across implementations,
Sun_Ed	and between putting so much into the spec that it is really difficult to implement.
Sun_Ed	This is why the core JSF renderkit has so few components.
mike	how many components are in the component library?
Sun_Ed	JSF 1.2 doesn't introduce any new components or renderers, but we plan to create a new JSR to host future developemnt of the standard renderkit.
mike	and.. who contributes?
Sun_Ed	This way, implementations can continue to support basic implementations and more advanced ones.
Sun_Ed	mike: how many: exactly 25
Sun_Ed	Who contributes?
Sun_Ed	Well, the design is done by the JCP expert group, with public input, and the implementation is done by anyone who wants to.
stormrider	so wats up with the sun airplane?
stormrider	over dell hq?
Sun_Ed	ahh, I heard about that.
writer	/mgs OlexiyO can you please refesh the problem statements in the applet from mpsqas?
stormrider	nice
mike	:)
stormrider	but sure cost a bomb
stormrider	to fly that over dell hq
Sun_Ed	We spare no expense here at Sun.
mess	Sun_Ed: Is it possible to use JSF with a wireless application?
stormrider	i can see
Sun_Ed	mess: yes, definately.
mike	Sun_Ed: so, is studio creator the only tool that focuses mainly on JSF?
Sun_Ed	The flexible renderkit concept was created with wireless in mind.
Sun_Ed	mike: definately not. It's the best, but by no means the only.
Sun_Ed	Other JSF tools are Oracle JDeveloper, IBM WebSphere Studio, Exadel Studio, Borland JBuilder
WaterIsPure	what other tools can be used ?
WaterIsPure	thanks
Emilian_Miron	Sun_Ed: how is JSF performance wise compared to jsp ?
Sun_Ed	A good list of tools is at http://jsfcentral.com/products/plugins/
Sun_Ed	Emilian_Miron: Since JSP is a rendering only technology, I can only compare the rendering experiences.
Sun_Ed	JSP doesn't do postback processing, so there is no comparison there.
Sun_Ed	As for rendering, JSF is about as intensive as a large JSP custom tag library
mess	Sun_Ed: what about ajax do you see the two technologies tied together?
Sun_Ed	mess: absolutely.
mess	Sun_Ed: we have seem the best results combining the two
Sun_Ed	As we show with our blueprints catalog <https://bpcatalog.dev.java.net/nonav/ajax/jsf-ajax/frames.html>
johncar	Sun_Ed: Some people use visual tool to develop Swing apps, other do it "by hand". Would JSF provides any benefits for people who are not programming using "click and drag" ? (eg, I'm using IntelliJ IDEA, which is hardly an "visual editor")
Sun_Ed	JSF and AJAX are perfect together.
Sun_Ed	Here's why
Sun_Ed	Coding the AJAX javascript by hand is tedious and error prone, not to mention very difficult to get working across browsers.
Sun_Ed	By encapsulating AJAX into JSF components, page authors can be spared the pain.
Sun_Ed	So, if anyone tries to tell you that JSF is competing w ith AJAX, they just don't understand JSF, AJAX, or perhaps both.
Sun_Ed	AJAX is nothing more than a technique to interact between a server and a browser without showing the user you're doing so.
Sun_Ed	No "spinner", no page refresh.
Sun_Ed	JSF, on the other hand is a framework that enables you to build components that use AJAX.
Sun_Ed	johncar: you bring up another oft repeated JSF myth, "you need a visual tool to use JSF".
Sun_Ed	This isn't true. I do my JSF development with netbeans.
johncar	Sun_Ed: which is why I'm asking :)
Sun_Ed	However, I tend not to build very pretty apps :)
Sun_Ed	But that's not the tool's fault.
johncar	:)
Sun_Ed	JSF is all about separation of roles.
Sun_Ed	your application architect can design the high level system,
Sun_Ed	your software engineer can build the code and compents,
Sun_Ed	your page designer can make it all look nice and pretty.
Sun_Ed	johncar: if you can develop HTML without a visual tool, you can develop JSF.
mike	not much interaction tonight
mike	anyone have questions?
tgu	why is to quite here?
Sun_Ed	yes, let's hear the questions.
Sun_Ed	I particulary want to hear any gripes people have about JSF.
ruxmcs	Hi, Ed, could I ask, "What language implement Java Language?"
tgu	what is JSF
Sun_Ed	But I have to leave in 8 minutes!
Sun_Ed	JSF is the industry standard Java Web Application Framework.
mike	so... gripe quickly :)
kanishkkunal	sujitkumar: hi
ruxmcs	Java language is written by what langauge? C? asm ?
WaterIsPure	does JSF compare to products like zope or open lazlo ?
sujitkumar	kanishkkunal: not me ask them
Sartak	I think he means which language implements the compilers and whatnot of Java.
sowen	I think JSF is just like web controller in .NET
Sun_Ed	ruxmcs: Actually, you can look at the code in https://mustang.dev.java.net/ Most of it is writen in Java itself, but the binary parts are written in C++ and some assembler.
Sun_Ed	WaterIsPure: Good question.
kanishkkunal	sujitkumar: ask what?
kanishkkunal	sujitkumar: and whom?
ruxmcs	Thanks!
sujitkumar	kanishkkunal: ask the white markers
tgu	kanishkkunal: and why?
Sun_Ed	I saw a demo of lazlo, and I felt it could be implemented in JSF, but out of the box it is not competitive wyth JSF.
kanishkkunal	tgu: ya
sujitkumar	kanishkkunal: haha
Sun_Ed	However, JSF requires no flash runtime.
Sartak	Thank you Sun_Ed. :)
Sun_Ed	Interestingly, with AJAX techniques, I think it would be possible to come close to what lazlo gives you with the flash runtime.
bramandia	Sun_Ed: what does JSF need in the client side?
Sun_Ed	bramandia: IE 5 or later
Sun_Ed	bramandia: Netscape 6 or later
Sun_Ed	bramandia: All releases of Safari work.
Sun_Ed	bramandia: Most releases of Opera work.
tgu	Sun_Ed: what exactly is a web application framework?
Sun_Ed	bramandia: not sure about konquerer
lordhiru	what abt mozilla?
stormrider	so how JSP improve on developing using AJAX architecture?
Sun_Ed	tgu: it's a java class library and runtime that enables you to build a user facing software application whose user interface is through a web browser.
tgu	Sun_Ed: thxs
Sun_Ed	lordhiru: Netscape 6 is mozilla, so all mozillas work.
lordhiru	ok
ruxmcs	one navie y/n question: Is Java language is opening source now?
mike	Sun_Ed: thanks for chatting today
mike	Sun_Ed: we all appreciate it
WaterIsPure	ed do you recommend any books
WaterIsPure	or articles on this technology ?
Sun_Ed	People are leaving
Sun_Ed	As far as books, I recommend the one by Kito Mann, look at jsfcentral.com
Sun_Ed	Thanks for coming everyone!
Sun_Ed	Good night!